gative Pressure Leaks?" Drive Acwooden frame mirror full length

"Negative Pressure Leaks?" Drive Accord forum, a community where Honda Accord owners can discuss reviews, service, parts, and share mods. Small amounts of moisture can be trapped under compressor oil or in the case of POE, bonded to the oil itself. Archive - I'm more curious about the explanation of the different value. Looks like I prob. If you are fortunate and cannot find any dye markers anywhere, the two service valves may be the leak sites. A forum community dedicated to the Ford Taurus and SHO models, Mercury Sable and Lincoln MKS. //-->. What's the benefit, or reason for charging it 3 times? Within narrow limits, the purpose of the vacuum ballast is to prevent water vapor from condensing in the pump during the discharge stroke of action. How high does system pressure get when its working with Freon in it? (Note: When the vacuum gauge indicates "high pressure" you are above 20,000 microns but still in negative pressure.) Because POE breaks down (wet oil is white oil) If the oil is wet, it is cheaper and faster to change the oil then to let the gas ballast work it out. After putting in a new compressor, condensor, expansion valve, all new O rings, receiver dryer etc, my system would not hold vacuum. I'm about to head down this very uncertain path myself. It was even enough to spit out some oil/dye. But its not AC oil. Only used store bought cans to fill. Terms of Service - If desired or required repeat this process until the moisture is removed. Microns are measured with electronic instruments. I put 60psi in (Which, btw stayed 60psi for 10 or so minutes or more until I let it out) This is the driest air I could get out of my desicant filter. If it's new, then you might have to eat it. Pulling a deep vacuum should be combined with the replacement of the ac receiver/drier or accumulator that will help to keep moisture inside the system under control. My manifold had a loose hose; without the hose it held a vacuum. If a leak still exists its due to; poor sealing of gauge hoses to fittings, worn out gauge valves or another leak exists in the a/c system. 1/2" hoses will decrease the time required for evacuation by a factor of 16 times over the typical 1/4" hoses used by most of the industry. Started refill, all good. Once i turn off the pump, it goes almost immediate to atmo. A/C & Refrigeration systems are designed to operate with only oil and I think people are super impatient about vacuum and it's the single most important thing you can do, but it shouldn't take HOURS to do. (Possibly trapped under the compressor oil. Start with fresh and dry vacuum pump oil. Do not pressurize the system as this will not remove moisture. I think, based on my experience, a 'refrigerant leak detector' would be easier as compared to a "co2 gas tester". Moisture can cause freeze-up at the metering device (Thermal Expansion Valve/Orifice Tube), which restricts refrigerant flow or blocks it completely. Schaefer valves had significant leak. Join now! Shop says rear expansion valve and line leaking. Evacuation is the name given to the process that pulls all traces of air and moisture from the system. They make noise, and they don't last. On third can, I noticed exhaust seemed to be smoking. Roofers punctured a line set today, no biff deal right. If it's a big leak like you say, start with shop air pressurization and soapy water. Evacuation is a two step process of The gauges keep showing OL microns, over load, more than it can read. Then replace the gaskets in your hoses. It's holding at 300 psi no issue. Hook up an additional vacuum pump if you have it. All the following is assuming the pressure test held and there is no leak- Replace the oil in your vacuum pump. If installing a typical residential system, the test can be performed and verified in about 15 minutes. Do not use manifolds that are not equipped with o-ring seals as packing often holds under pressure but leaks in a vacuum. An open gas ballast prevents the pump from reaching its ultimate vacuum levels and should be closed after you reach 15,000-10,000 microns. If the leak rate has not decreased, two things may be happening: 1) The system is still contaminated with moisture. Non-condensable gases (ambient air) inside the a/c system. About Us - A non-condensable gas will remain a vapor in the condenser. Once the suction line iscompletelyopen, open the liquid service valve,re installthe valve cores and remove the vacuum gauge and core tools. BluVac pro indicates vacuum level higher than 25,000 microns incase you were wondering lol. Great, thanks. as per usual helps as well. bluevac..bluevac..bluevac..run the bluevac zombies are coming. While at first it may seem counter intuitive to use large diameter hoses the value rapidly becomes apparent after starting the evacuation. degassing and dehydration. Here (at our facility) we use refrigerant to find leaks. Location: Land of many Potholes, Michigan. The hoses all look great, and makes me think that someone replaced them as I found a 134a fitting on the low pressure side hidden under the pressure switch. Ac compressors come shipped with oil in them. This means straining to look over, under, around and behind the entire system. (Some leaks are more apparent under vacuum than pressure.). The reason I recommend you always change the oil is it is hard to see how cloudy is is through a small unlit sight glass. It wont hold pressure for long. Installing the dryer inside near the evaporator will better protect the metering device, assure visually that 100% liquid is present, and prevent the dryer from rusting prematurely. Just let it pump over night. Release pressure like removing the cap off a bottle of soda water and gas comes out of solution. If you can, avoid 1/4" hoses for evacuation as they are too time consuming and costly to be effective. As the gauge can handle up to 500 psig, you need not be concerned with damaging the micron gauge by overpressurization. Anyone else ever run into this? Ive found the coolant leak and white smoke issue. I can get some refrigerant, what I hear you saying is that creating vacuum would be required to put it in, right? I had so much bad luck with them that it just isn't worth it. Having the ballast open during the initial pull down of a wet system will help to prevent condensation within the pump. Moisture refrigerant and mineral oils form acids that will If the leak is that big, you should see a trace of oil wherever the leak is happening. Cleaned that with brake clean and compressed air, then put a new valve in. sounds a lot like when I was getting my non-operational (major components missing) AC system up and running on my '90 S4. Ultimately, I bought the hoses from Auto Cooling Solutions, installed them, and have had no issues since. Advertising - Privacy Statement - It really helps. Pull a vacuum until a level of 1000 microns is reached, (if using large diameter hoses and core tools, evacuation of the line set and evaporator coil will take less than 15 minutes for a typical residential system of up to 5 tons). Taurus Car Club of America : Ford Taurus Forum. There are only so many joints to check. Remember even the best vacuum rated hoses will leak and that is why isolation is a necessity. They all had a tag on them telling you not to drain the oil out of them. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. It may be wiser to replace service valves now rather than taking a chance find a leaking one later and having to revisit a repair again. Removing water vapor from a system is known as dehydration. Are you watching the high side pressure too? The automotive A/C system must hold the vacuum of 29.92 in Hg for at least 1 minute. I think triple evacuating is often overlooked. Tonnage, lineset length, moistureetc. Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts. Moisture is the second issue. Use the second band of numbers (referenced from outer to inner bands of numbers) - the blue band. I appreciate your advice. After the second standing test, allow the vacuum pump to run until the system is preferably below 200 microns. A perfect vacuum remains long after the vacuum pump is shut off to allow recharging a repaired system. Maybe it was just whoever made the ones you bought were different. Static low before I started was near 30. Degassing removes non condensibles which The manifold controls flow to all three passages but not the gauges as they're still connected to measure low and high side pressures. Doing so undermines all your time and effort to this point. About Us - If you only look for convenient places to find dye leaks, you'll be disappointed, Dye leaves its tell tale sign in any part of the a/c system. Then look for the leak. What is the high side running pressure wise? Leak rate is simply derived from a drop in vacuum over a unit of time, typically displayed in microns per second. Should this occur, the system temperature may have to be raised by an external heat source to get the moisture out of the system.). If your pump cannot achieve 100 microns or less, change the oil with a high quality, low vapor pressure oil like Appion Tezom. Generation 1-4 Taurus, Sable Platform (1986-2007), The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The price range could be $85.00 to $300.00 dollars to evacuate and recharge a system. I meant NEGATIVE 30, and also IN Hg (not mm Hg). They shouldn't make any noise, especially if it was built correct. Now i need to decide whether, or not to have it changed. Advertising - On third can. Changed out that schrader. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada, driveaccord.net is an independent Honda enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc. On a split I set up that hose on the suction side and put my micron gauge on the liquid line. contaminate line sets. Here's the link for the hose kit. The gas ballast is only effective in removing small amounts of moisture, so a very wet system will require frequent oil changes if you want to make fast work of getting the job done. I'd go ahead and charge her up. Cant get system to hold vacuum at the moment. FIRST.. you are only giving low pressure reading I assume..you need to read BOTH gauges, The following errors occurred with your submission, CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion, V8 Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine, Basic Tech and Maintenance for the C3 Corvette, In loving memory of lost CorvetteForum Brothers and Sisters. Did you inspect the seals on the gauge hoses? Must be of the size most don't bother looking for. VACUUM RIG, (1) Refrigeration Air Conditioning Technology 5th Edition Copyright 2005, (2) Review of Vacuum for Service Engineers 1988. bachands, thank you. Read our Privacy Policy for more info. Do Not Sell My Personal Information -, By logging into your account, you agree to our, Location: Deep in the Pisgah National Forest. If a leak is indicated, it must be repaired before the evacuation can be completed. A good quality pump will easily achieve levels or below 50 microns. Test posts are permitted. Lo and behold I found an 134a port hidden under the switch. The links have been helpful. I store my o-rings in Ziploc bags, sorted by size, immersed in oil. Big2Bird has the best suggestion.. you should be able to find it with dye. When it comes to system evacuation only small amounts of moisture are practical to remove this way. However if the system is vacuum tight but still contains moisture the rise will level off when the vapor pressure equalizes in the system typically between 20,000 and 25,000 microns between 72 and 80 F. At that point that vacuum reading will become stable. Now compressor wont kick on. Went to check that out. Break the system vacuum with nitrogen introduced at the side port of the core tool. Ive put this on hold for the time being. so air cannot get back into the system. google_ad_height = 90; After the evacuation is complete, if you are working on a new installation, keep the pump isolated and open (crack) the suction line service letting a small amount of refrigerant into the system bringing the system slowly into a positivepressure. A vacuum gauge is used to determine the level of atmosphere (degassing and dehydration) in the system. Put in 3oz of dye then found a leak below the pressure switch. 100% UA the only HVAC union! system has been opened to atmosphere is critical to proper operation of Have rear expansion valve but not sure if it's worth it to replace lines. If in doubt change it out! (You must log in or sign up to reply here. But I hate to buy a new dryer and then figure I still have charging issues. The gas ballast used used only during the roughing period and only needed when there is moisture in the system. If there is no leak, the 2nd leak rate in the system the leak rate should be considerably less than the first indicating progress in the job of dehydration. The house is small, maybe 30 feet of line set, on a 3 ton system. Air contains oxygen, nitrogen, and water vapor, all of which are detrimental to the system. Pump blank offs are notorious for leaking, so do not depend on one for isolating the vacuum pump. The two service valve couplers remain connected and open so the gauges can monitor system pressure or vacuum in this scenario. JavaScript is disabled. Post photos, respond to polls and access other special features. http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/shone-fai/cat/500, http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/shoshooti/cat/500, http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho3777&nocache=1. With the system operating at a higher pressure, extra load will put on the compressor which will decrease overall energy efficiency for the system. I pulled 3 splits down to less then 150 microns yesterday. Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1. Nitrogen should be purged through the piping during the installation and during brazing to avoid the introduction of contaminates and moisture into the piping and also to avoid the formation of copper oxides during brazing. Im not an AC guy, but what kind of issues does moisture in the system cause? Whoops. When a typical system is installed and/or serviced, air and moisture enter the system. After a system has been opened for any repair, service or installation even for a short amount of time the a/c system should be evacuated. So I checked it out. I can unsubscribe anytime to withdraw my consent. But when we attach our vacuum to get it down to below 500 microns, it won't vacuum. The saga continues. Experience and or a high resolution micron gauge will allow for shorter times of evaluation. Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by AGELE55, May 31, 2022. ChryslerMinivan.net is the best forum for Chrysler Town and Country owners to discuss mileage, price, problems, towing and more. I honestly didnt pay attention to high. Copyright 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. ). The following errors occurred with your submission. I have pulled down a 330lb circuit for a screw chiller in 8 hours using a 7cfm pump. It has several advantages of all other vacuum gauges. Sometimes if the O rings are dry the oil will seal them. After the second drop test check the condition of the vacuum pump oil. Take it down to about 1 psig. I'm not a big fan of dye. Attach the micron gauge directly to the vacuum pump via the 1/4" connection and verify that the pump is capable of achieving a vacuum level of 100 microns or less. We left it for 2 hours and came back, still says OL. Content on driveaccord.net is generated by its users. One of the most important things you can do is to always nitrogen sweep or purge a system before performing an evacuation. DO NOT open the system to atmosphere under a vacuum! No refrigerant with dye injected into an empty system is necessary. One pound of water (about 1 pint) produces about 867ft3 of water vapor at 70F." If the oil is wet, change it with clean dry oil. If there is water a large vacuum pump (10 CFM) might pull it down fast enough to freeze the water. The guy at the parts counter said that the maximum pressure would be about 25psi; I knew he was wrong from reading these forums, but the AC Systems Performance Test PDF said that 26 to 30 psi was normal on the low end at 80 F and the combination of these two statements worried me. Yes. Performing this test will again pick up some additional moisture that will not have to be removed during the evacuation process. Had some a/c work done and there's an issue with the a/c system holding pressure but not vacuum. Removal of both is typically referred to as evacuation. Look up triple evacuation method. It's 90+ degrees out and sunny, the hole was punctured on the roof, so I doubt water is the issue.We pumped it up to 300psi, 3 times now. Typically no more than a triple evacuation with sweep are required. I checked for leaking fluids, saw nothing. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums, http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.e-TEST!!/page2. The expansion valve and extension tubes were pretty corroded and tough to remove, but Id say easier than I expected. In addition, air contains oxygen, which promotes bad chemistry in the system creating corrosion from inside out of all ac aluminum parts especially evaporators. Refrigerant comes out of solution from oil to appear as boiling. Kept under pressure, nothing appears out of the ordinary. Usually when a vacuum holds, pressurizing a system will hold pressures. try turning the compressor over a half turn,ive had them do that,they leak somehow through the compressor.Weird but it has happened to me,turned the compressor over a bit and it was ok. Also the seals may not be "puffed" up to give a good seal,have had lots that sealed undr vaccuum and leaked when pressurized?,The new cars with all the aluminum pipes are bad for that,if the pipe is bent a bit out of shape they will leak too. Once the liquid gases off the pressure will drop quickly. So, I know this is old, but wanted to update everyone. I agree. However if you are using a digital manifold like the Fieldpiece SMAN, leaks will also be apparent simply due to the high resolution of the pressure sensors. When moisture (liquid) enters a system or condenses the only way it can be removed is in a vapor. Apparently someone had already changed out the evaporator (awesome). Ideas? Increasing the system pressure will actually cause the water to drop out of the nitrogen similar to that of compressed air in an air compressor. If good, open the manifold valves and continue evacuating the system for another 15 minutes then shut off manifold valves in preparation for recharging with r134a. Press J to jump to the feed. Eliminates so many headaches. Sweeping the system with nitrogen during installation will significantly decrease evacuation times. Do Not Sell My Personal Information -, By logging into your account, you agree to our. I recommend vacuum rated hoses, using a core removal tool and not pulling through your gauges. Would have been my first choice. I put a tiny charge in and it bubbles there. When oil is wet, the vapor pressure increases to a point where a deep vacuum can not be created. While the micron gauge is quite capable, testing for a leak in a vacuum is not acceptable practice over a standing pressure test as moisture is drawn into the system during the evacuation process. If you purge during assembly, and sweep the system with nitrogen prior to evacuation, you will likely not need to use the gas ballast at all. Just behind my repair & just upstream from the rear extension tubes. Problems with oil contamination, field calibration, and work flow have all been addressed. If it was rebuilt, I would return it. This state of equilibrium is what is meant by the term ballast. Tubing benders should be used to minimize the number of fittings and reduce internal restrictions. I agree to receive emails from the site. One of the best moves I made. Looks just like the old one. This could result in the need for complete system I had to forcefully remove the high port schrader. You can also get an ultrasonic leak detector but that doesn't sound particularly useful with something like this. There's a difference. I know playing with small volumes I could get the readings to change quickly with temp change. It will not flow to the condenser outlet like liquid refrigerant does after its been condensed, but instead it will remain trapped inside the condenser tubing. With a vacuum pump connected to both, low and high air conditioning system sides pull a deep vacuum for at least 5-45 minutes. google_ad_slot = "4972140983"; When you start seeing it leak see where it is leaking from. Could exhaust smoke be unrelated to ac? Solder it shut, p0ump it full if nitrogen to test for leaks. Mechanic says he can do it for 1200-1300. /* 728x90, created 4/10/11 */ If you dont pull under 10,000 in about 30 minutes sweep with nitrogen. If in doubt change it out! If the system indicates moisture, a multiple evacuation with a nitrogen sweep will significantly reduce the amount of moisture in the system. Not really worth the effort on small splits though IMO. Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. New, a 4 Seasons unit. I gotta disagree with you there. For the evacuation and test I left my equipment on overnight- I have no ability to read what the pressure is otherwise. Keep connections to a minimum and points of access to the maximum. Its odd to me, but unless my gauges are screwed up, the system holds a vacuum just fine. Otherwise, repeat the pressure test - there's a hole somewhere. Since refrigeration oil hasn't been reported as being blown out, completely emptying the system of oil, dye remains with oil. When I came back up front, wasnt pulling in Freon high pressure had dropped. Look no further we have it. replacement. Assuming the valve cores are removed, connect large diameter vacuum rated hoses to the back of the core tools (do not use side ports of the core tool for evacuation) at both the high and low side of the system so that both sides can be pulled down simultaneously. With a lost in heat transfer capability of the condenser and the inability of the refrigerant to cool down properly, the refrigerant temperature will get higher compared to the air temperature, which means higher discharge pressures. A vacuum of about 500 microns or 29.92 hg gauge pressure is needed for removing any moisture that may have entered the system along with the non-condensable gases while it was open. A subreddit for Heating, Ventilation, & Air Conditioning technicians - please visit r/hvacadvice to ask general questions, and r/thermostats for thermostat issues! Using the OP's graph this test case doesn't have a leak but it indeed does, why? What's the worst that can happen? If I can't, I know I need a nitro purge, and keep doing so (pull down until it stalls, break w/ nitro & purge) until that happens. Was it new or rebuilt? Again, pulled vacuum. I found a few worn spots, where refrigerant seemed to be leaking. As mentioned above, I wound up having the head gasket work done, but finally got aroung to looking this over, again. I had this happen to me once where one of the hoses had a leak at the connector crimp. All hoses leak, and at .1 micron resolution that will be very apparent. cause increased head pressures and increased operating cost. This means push the nitrogen through the system, one side to the next WITHOUT significantly raising the system pressure. If the pump will still not achieve a deep vacuum, it may be time for replacement or service. failure. Oxygen, nitrogen and We only ever pump nitrogen once typically, and just to check for leaks. Break the vacuum with nitrogen to that equivalent to atmospheric pressure (760,000 microns) then purge nitrogen through the system at 1-3 psig. On third can, When compressor was not spinning, high dropped all the way down almost to vacuum. This will push out the moisture vapors with out dropping them out into the system in liquid form. Then it takes forever to remove it. I may have to change that high side line out. I swapped low and high valves under the hood. This will result in the displacement of space used by the refrigerant for heat transfer and condensation .The air will reduce the overall heat transfer coefficient of the vapor inside the tube. refrigerant flowing through them. That will stall it at several thousand microns vacuum until all the water is gone, which could take pretty much forever if there's a lot. Micron gauge displays can be electronic analog, digital, or light emitting diode (LED). Ahhh the wonderful world of vacuum uncertainty! Cookie Policy - Rennlist Forum Glitches - post them here. The block off is a piece of cake. On the high pressure side, after the compressor has done its job compressing and raising the temperature and pressure of the refrigerant, this refrigerant in a vapor state is supposed to condense in the condenser. You could charge it with 3 lbs, and a can of UV dye. I think it's also overlooked to keep vacuum gauges clean and calibrated - I really love that my bluvac can be easily calibrated. A standing pressure test is used to check for leaks by using a dry gas again like dry nitrogen. If your pump is equipped with a gas ballast, open the ballast until a level of 10,000 microns is reached. (Note: Refrigerant may make the vacuum sensor act if under a vacuum or erratic after removal until the refrigerant vapor is out of the sensor. JavaScript is disabled. Removal of the air and other non-condensibles is called degassing and removal of the moisture dehydration. BTW, I would never use a rebuilt. systems, (like R410a) causing premature failure of the oil. Even single appion 3/8 hose with no core I can achieve that. The pumps ability to clean the system is directly related to its ability to reduce pressure, create a vacuum, low enough to boil off all the contaminating moisture. You can replace the rear lines and/or evaporator extension, or just slap on a rear AC block off kit like I did on our 2010. Both of these problems result in intermittent cooling or no cooling at all. I have some yellow jacket 3/8x1/4 vacuum rated hoses. Accurately measuring and proving a vacuum in the low micron range can be accomplished with an electronic instrument. Maybe a different spot? Dye is permanently mixed in oil and remains viable for years despite claims against this. When you say it won't hold pressure, what exactly are you doing, and what do you see happening? The blue band represents zero to 350 psi. The sensor is calibrated for air and a refrigerant atmosphere will affect the readings.) I found a leak midway back on the van, on the High/Liquid line, also. The #1 question asked by NEW MEMBERS. into its fundamental components, it can clog the metering device and Contact Us - (1) Therefore in the words of David Boyd at Appion, "Keep it clean dry and tight". Hook your micron gauge right to the vacuum pump and verify that it pulls down and reads properly. Flushed the system with an expensive can of cleaner, then blew out with compressed air. A rise in the pressure after a short stabilization period indicates there is still moisture in the system or the presence of a small system leak. Those all seem tight. google_ad_client = "pub-8306900413359372"; Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. We hooked a new set of gauges up and it seems to be reading now and pumping down slowly.Hopefully it was just faulty vacuum gauge.Will update when I know more. harvey. I have spent more time than Id like to admit double checking all of my connections and gaskets when that stupid micron reading doesnt go down! Speaking of leak points, when I disconnected my hose I heard a hissing from the low side and there was fluid effervescing in and around the valve. The last few compressors Ive bought, all Sanden style, came with the proper oil in them. But the wife didnt care for that solution. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. If you get 100 lbs of air in the system with a leak that big you should be able to hear it. Vacuum pump oil is extremely hygroscopic (moisture absorbing) so starting fresh will make things go a lot faster. The Vacuum Pump reduces system pressure in order to vaporize the moisture and then exhausts the vapor along with all remaining air. Join the discussions on EcoBoost, aftermarket performance, and more! The best way to remove non-condensable gases (NCGs) is to pull a deep vacuum in the system. Discharge pressure and compressor temperature will go up which can lead to increased lubricant breakdown and shorter compressor lifetime. (keep it open until you are at 15,000-10,000 microns,) Moisture is what kills the vacuum pump oil. Looking for the perfect vacuum rig? Its the head gasket. Non-condensable gases have a serious impact on system performance, operating conditions, and lifetime of an air conditioning system. Did you locate the leak(s) before hand. cjc15153, when you state "zero" on the low pressure (blue) gauge, do you mean zero as in '0" or a vacuum with the needle pointing to -30in hg? Tubing must be kept clean and dry through the entire installation, moisture dirt and other contaminates can compromise system operation and significantly increase the time required for evacuation. Could it have gotten a bunch of water in it somehow after the refrigerant leaked out? At 0.1 micron resolution you can easily see if the vacuum pump is gaining ground, if the vacuum pump oil needs changed, and when the gauge is isolated the decay of the vacuum and the ultimate system pressure. Moisture brakes down POE oil in HFC If the micron level does not rise above 500 microns the evacuation is complete. Yeahmaybe. A temperature compensated pressure test like that available in the Testo series of digital manifolds will make the process fast and efficient.